Comments for IndyChurch http://indychurch.org a small collection of Christians trying to do church a little differently Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:47:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 Comment on Wine or Grape Juice ? by Frank Compton http://indychurch.org/blog/2003/11/wine-or-grape-juice/#comment-109 Frank Compton Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:55:56 +0000 http://indychurch.org/?p=88#comment-109 Very interesting Posts and great Posits. Perhaps our understanding of the original Hebrew context of "Communion" will help - time permitting. There is little evidence that the 2nd Testament was written in Greek (a language of Form - takes what is beautiful and makes it Holy). Papias and Esubius both early Church Fathers refer to the 2nd Testament Hebrew Scriptures (Hebrew being a language of Function - takes what is Holy and makes it beautiful). The point here is that the Greek transliteration from the Hebrew leaves out many needed Hebraisms and idioms necessary for a full understanding of the text. The Pasach meal has always enjoyed wine bcause wine in Judaic ceremony represents an "acceptance" to a Covenant or business transaction. It is specifically used for weddings when two people are betrothed to signify their mutual acceptance of the Covenant terms and conditions, and the Bride Price. G-d bringing Israel out of Egypt 'unto himself' is likened to the Messiah bringing us out of sin 'unto Himself' - His bride. A Covenant has been made between Bride and Groom and when this is agreed upon, a toast or 'cup of acceptance' is drunk commemorating the transaction. The Hebrew Bride Price was the Blood of a Lamb to 'cover' their sins. In the case of Christ and the Messianic Believers, the Bride Price would be His Blood poured out for the remission of sin. The 'cup' of wine is then drunk together to 'seal' the covenant agreement. The original Pasach in Egypt was done with ordinary bread (there was no leavening apart from time), so the behest to complete the meal before midnight when the Angel of Death would Pass-Over. The 'Lord's Supper' as it is referred to in the NIV was not the Pesach celebration but was the 'Last Supper' of a period of ceremonial suppers with Leavened bread that took place just before the Pass-over supper or Seder which was without leavening. Christ's (I prefer 'Yahshua') breaking of bread (leavened) was symbolic of His body broken for our healing, His body leavened with our sin for our cleansing, and by His blood poured out for our iniquities. Then He picks up the cup at the end of the meal and declares "This is the cup of the renewed Covenant that I make with you (in my Blood), do this as often as you come together in remembrance of my death until I return". The Jews celebrate their weddings with a 'Hoopa' which is a lifting up of the Bride jsut before the wedding meal - s picture of the 'Rapture' before the wedding supper. The whole of the 1st and 2nd Testaments together are a Jewish Wedding Handbook. At the Wedding Feast of Cana Yahshua is saying "the wedding is on - prepare for the Hoopa". He has saved the best wine until last - the wine of the Holy Spirit. The Song of Solomon is a compendium in one writ of YAHWEH's wedding plans - the redemption of mankind. Concerning the 'unworthy manner' found in 1 co 11:27, please note that 'unworthy' modifies 'manner' (diagram it) not the spiritual condition necessarily of the participant. A technical but very important part of the Communion process. Paul is castigating the 'way' some approach the table - not their relationship with the L-rd. He is our 'Worthiness'. If I come to a meal less than totally healed or completely sinless I come unworthily. And I come for healing and restoration, because that is how He left me when we first met. Paul's main concern was their lack of understanding of what happened at the Tree (Cross): 1CO 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the 'body' of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. (NIV) The word Body here is 'soma' in the Greek which means 'wholeness - not lacking'. He was broken completely for all our iniquities and infirmities, that we would be made whole, complete, not lacking anything. We should be totally healed. Note also that 'soma' is rooted in 'sozo' or salvation. Or, turning it around: the fruit of 'sozo' our salvation is 'soma' our wholeness. When I am Saved, I am also Healed - they should go together. 1CO 11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. (we shouldn't be) We are a new creation, we are supposed to be completely healed; we are not 'going home early' because if we are obedient to the commandments we can expect to live a long and healthy life. You don't put new wine into old wineskins; He is coming for a 'body of believers' without spot or wrinkle! YAHSHUA bought and paid for our healing with His life and a lot of pain and suffering - that we wouldn't have to. Psa 105:37 says of Israel coming out of Egypt - "They were laden with Silver and Gold (for the building up of the Tabernacle), and there was not a feeble man among them. (They were totally healed) He has redeemed us in exactly the same manner: When He brought us out of sin, we were laden with Gifts of the Spirit (for the building up of the Church), and there 'should' not be any feeble among us. (Eph 4:8-12) Too much for too little space. Sufficient to say, the 'cup' of wine does not represent His Blood. Eating flesh and drinking blood were anathema to the TORAH. YAHSHUA was a Pharisee - an ardent keeper of the Law. He never broke the Law. He did restore a lot of lost Righteousness in the keeping of the law. Jews never ask G-d to bless what He has already Blessed. They give thanks for His Provision: Baruch Atta Adonai Elohenu Melek HaOlam Hamotze lechem meen haaretz = Blessed are You O YAHWEH our YAH, King of the Universe, Who brings forth the bread from the earth! Bread does not come from the earth - the resurrected YAHSHUA does; as it says: "No man comes to the Father except through the Son; No man comes to the Son except the Father Draw Him (from the earth)! It's the Resurrected life in us that YAHWEH uses to 'draw' men to Himself! In the same way, the Jews give thanks to the Creator of the... well, listen: Baruch atta Adonai Elohenu Melek HaOlam Bore Pri Hagafen = Blessed are You O YAHWEH our YAH Creator of the fruit of the vine! The Body and the Blood are included in the Breaking of the bread. The Cup of Wine is the signatory of His Creation/Finished Works/Completed Covenant. Please note the Jews do this every meal as did the Messianic Believers of YAHSHUA's time, right up through the 3rd century - every meal was a Communion Meal. (Luk 24:30). Jewish Sages (Talmud) said that they will not recognize Messiach ben Joseph - the first of two Messiahs (and they didn't). They are now looking forward to Messiach ben David - Deliverer Our Messiach ben Joseph - Redeemer has already been - and will come again as Messiach ben David - Deliverer. As it is stated: The first born (the Jew) will be last (in His Kingdom), and the last (the Jew) will still be the first born of YAHWEH. To the Jew first! PRO 27:18 He who tends a fig tree will eat its fruit, and he who looks after his master will be honored. (NIV) This is our present mission from YAHWEH - to facilitate the restoration of the Jew - not to save him. G-d will save him. Our restoration witness starts with our personal wellness, family wholeness, and productive labor. Communion is in and of itself a "Healing Meal"! I come to Communion either to celebrate His wholeness (soma) or to receive 'wholeness'. EXO 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. (NKJV) 'Taking His Name' is a Jewish wedding expression. When a bride takes the name of her husband, she takes everything he is and has - health, wealth, social values and societal position. She is no longer her own - she has been bought with a price. We are bought with a price, and we are His and His Bride Price (His Blood) bought us a soul without 'SPOT' and a body without 'WRINKLE'. When I walk unhealed or with sin in my life (the two go together frequently but not always), I am taking the LORD's name in vain - for it was His Name that saved me and healed me at the beginning. Remember, Hebrew is a language of 'function'. the word 'name' in Hebrew means 'appelation' - the character of - the function of. This Commandment is not a 'vocabulary' command, it is a 'function' command - how I walk or talk, or work, or play - everything I do speaks of the one I represent - YAHWEH Who heals and delivers, or Satan who seeks to steal, kill, and destroy. I am first a Witness of the Spirit in me (Rom 12:1) "Everything I do with my physical body is my spiritual service of warship". My witness to anybody - Jew or Greek - starts with their perception of my physical being. Peter said to the man at the Gate Beautiful - 'Look at me, Silver and Gold have I not but what I have give I to thee' and the crippled man looked at him expecting to receive something (If Peter had been crippled, the crippled man certainly wouldn't have been looking for a healing), and Peter took him by the hand and pulled him to his feet'. Saint Francis of Assisi, when asked by a disciple on a trip when would he start witnessing, was answered "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel, and if absolutely necessary, open your mouth" Communion should be my daily contact point with my LORD and SAVIOR like renewing a wedding vow, we are renewing our Covenant relationship with Him. It's a time of healing and restoration - so that His Name in me will not be in vain. The elements are not nearly as important as the clear understanding of what He did for me on that Tree. His Body became leavened with my infirmities; His Blood became leavened with my iniquities. Yes, whole bread and real wine are what the L-rd used because they very graphically represent what He did for us in making and sealing His Covenant of Love. I hope you will join Nancy and me - physically or Spiritually - in our Communion time tomorrow morning - and every morning! Shalom in Yahshua Frank Very interesting Posts and great Posits. Perhaps our understanding of the original Hebrew context of “Communion” will help - time permitting.

There is little evidence that the 2nd Testament was written in Greek (a language of Form - takes what is beautiful and makes it Holy). Papias and Esubius both early Church Fathers refer to the 2nd Testament Hebrew Scriptures (Hebrew being a language of Function - takes what is Holy and makes it beautiful).

The point here is that the Greek transliteration from the Hebrew leaves out many needed Hebraisms and idioms necessary for a full understanding of the text.

The Pasach meal has always enjoyed wine bcause wine in Judaic ceremony represents an “acceptance” to a Covenant or business transaction. It is specifically used for weddings when two people are betrothed to signify their mutual acceptance of the Covenant terms and conditions, and the Bride Price.

G-d bringing Israel out of Egypt ‘unto himself’ is likened to the Messiah bringing us out of sin ‘unto Himself’ - His bride. A Covenant has been made between Bride and Groom and when this is agreed upon, a toast or ‘cup of acceptance’ is drunk commemorating the transaction.

The Hebrew Bride Price was the Blood of a Lamb to ‘cover’ their sins.
In the case of Christ and the Messianic Believers, the Bride Price would be His Blood poured out for the remission of sin.
The ‘cup’ of wine is then drunk together to ’seal’ the covenant agreement.

The original Pasach in Egypt was done with ordinary bread (there was no leavening apart from time), so the behest to complete the meal before midnight when the Angel of Death would Pass-Over.

The ‘Lord’s Supper’ as it is referred to in the NIV was not the Pesach celebration but was the ‘Last Supper’ of a period of ceremonial suppers with Leavened bread that took place just before the Pass-over supper or Seder which was without leavening.

Christ’s (I prefer ‘Yahshua’) breaking of bread (leavened) was symbolic of His body broken for our healing, His body leavened with our sin for our cleansing, and by His blood poured out for our iniquities. Then He picks up the cup at the end of the meal and declares “This is the cup of the renewed Covenant that I make with you (in my Blood), do this as often as you come together in remembrance of my death until I return”.

The Jews celebrate their weddings with a ‘Hoopa’ which is a lifting up of the Bride jsut before the wedding meal - s picture of the ‘Rapture’ before the wedding supper. The whole of the 1st and 2nd Testaments together are a Jewish Wedding Handbook. At the Wedding Feast of Cana Yahshua is saying “the wedding is on - prepare for the Hoopa”. He has saved the best wine until last - the wine of the Holy Spirit.

The Song of Solomon is a compendium in one writ of YAHWEH’s wedding plans - the redemption of mankind.

Concerning the ‘unworthy manner’ found in 1 co 11:27, please note that ‘unworthy’ modifies ‘manner’ (diagram it) not the spiritual condition necessarily of the participant. A technical but very important part of the Communion process. Paul is castigating the ‘way’ some approach the table - not their relationship with the L-rd. He is our ‘Worthiness’. If I come to a meal less than totally healed or completely sinless I come unworthily.
And I come for healing and restoration, because that is how He left me when we first met.

Paul’s main concern was their lack of understanding of what happened at the Tree (Cross):
1CO 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the ‘body’ of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. (NIV)

The word Body here is ’soma’ in the Greek which means ‘wholeness - not lacking’. He was broken completely for all our iniquities and infirmities, that we would be made whole, complete, not lacking anything. We should be totally healed. Note also that ’soma’ is rooted in ’sozo’ or salvation. Or, turning it around: the fruit of ’sozo’ our salvation is ’soma’ our wholeness.
When I am Saved, I am also Healed - they should go together.

1CO 11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. (we shouldn’t be)

We are a new creation, we are supposed to be completely healed; we are not ‘going home early’ because if we are obedient to the commandments we can expect to live a long and healthy life. You don’t put new wine into old wineskins; He is coming for a ‘body of believers’ without spot or wrinkle!

YAHSHUA bought and paid for our healing with His life and a lot of pain and suffering - that we wouldn’t have to.

Psa 105:37 says of Israel coming out of Egypt - “They were laden with Silver and Gold (for the building up of the Tabernacle), and there was not a feeble man among them. (They were totally healed)

He has redeemed us in exactly the same manner:

When He brought us out of sin, we were laden with Gifts of the Spirit (for the building up of the Church), and there ’should’ not be any feeble among us. (Eph 4:8-12)

Too much for too little space. Sufficient to say, the ‘cup’ of wine does not represent His Blood. Eating flesh and drinking blood were anathema to the TORAH. YAHSHUA was a Pharisee - an ardent keeper of the Law. He never broke the Law. He did restore a lot of lost Righteousness in the keeping of the law.

Jews never ask G-d to bless what He has already Blessed. They give thanks for His Provision:
Baruch Atta Adonai Elohenu Melek HaOlam
Hamotze lechem meen haaretz = Blessed are You O YAHWEH our YAH, King of the Universe, Who brings forth the bread from the earth!

Bread does not come from the earth - the resurrected YAHSHUA does; as it says: “No man comes to the Father except through the Son; No man comes to the Son except the Father Draw Him (from the earth)!

It’s the Resurrected life in us that YAHWEH uses to ‘draw’ men to Himself!

In the same way, the Jews give thanks to the Creator of the… well, listen:
Baruch atta Adonai Elohenu Melek HaOlam
Bore Pri Hagafen = Blessed are You O YAHWEH our YAH
Creator of the fruit of the vine!

The Body and the Blood are included in the Breaking of the bread.
The Cup of Wine is the signatory of His Creation/Finished Works/Completed Covenant.

Please note the Jews do this every meal as did the Messianic Believers of YAHSHUA’s time, right up through the 3rd century - every meal was a Communion Meal. (Luk 24:30).

Jewish Sages (Talmud) said that they will not recognize Messiach ben Joseph - the first of two Messiahs (and they didn’t).
They are now looking forward to Messiach ben David - Deliverer

Our Messiach ben Joseph - Redeemer has already been - and will come again as Messiach ben David - Deliverer.

As it is stated: The first born (the Jew) will be last (in His Kingdom), and the last (the Jew) will still be the first born of YAHWEH.

To the Jew first!

PRO 27:18 He who tends a fig tree will eat its fruit, and he who looks after his master will be honored. (NIV)

This is our present mission from YAHWEH - to facilitate the restoration of the Jew - not to save him. G-d will save him. Our restoration witness starts with our personal wellness, family wholeness, and productive labor.

Communion is in and of itself a “Healing Meal”! I come to Communion either to celebrate His wholeness (soma) or to receive ‘wholeness’.

EXO 20:7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. (NKJV)

‘Taking His Name’ is a Jewish wedding expression. When a bride takes the name of her husband, she takes everything he is and has - health, wealth, social values and societal position. She is no longer her own - she has been bought with a price. We are bought with a price, and we are His and His Bride Price (His Blood) bought us a soul without ‘SPOT’ and a body without ‘WRINKLE’.

When I walk unhealed or with sin in my life (the two go together frequently but not always), I am taking the LORD’s name in vain - for it was His Name that saved me and healed me at the beginning.

Remember, Hebrew is a language of ‘function’. the word ‘name’ in Hebrew means ‘appelation’ - the character of - the function of. This Commandment is not a ‘vocabulary’ command, it is a ‘function’ command - how I walk or talk, or work, or play - everything I do speaks of the one I represent - YAHWEH Who heals and delivers, or Satan who seeks to steal, kill, and destroy. I am first a Witness of the Spirit in me (Rom 12:1) “Everything I do with my physical body is my spiritual service of warship”.

My witness to anybody - Jew or Greek - starts with their perception of my physical being. Peter said to the man at the Gate Beautiful - ‘Look at me, Silver and Gold have I not but what I have give I to thee’ and the crippled man looked at him expecting to receive something (If Peter had been crippled, the crippled man certainly wouldn’t have been looking for a healing), and Peter took him by the hand and pulled him to his feet’.

Saint Francis of Assisi, when asked by a disciple on a trip when would he start witnessing, was answered “Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel, and if absolutely necessary, open your mouth”

Communion should be my daily contact point with my LORD and SAVIOR like renewing a wedding vow, we are renewing our Covenant relationship with Him. It’s a time of healing and restoration - so that His Name in me will not be in vain. The elements are not nearly as important as the clear understanding of what He did for me on that Tree. His Body became leavened with my infirmities; His Blood became leavened with my iniquities. Yes, whole bread and real wine are what the L-rd used because they very graphically represent what He did for us in making and sealing His Covenant of Love.

I hope you will join Nancy and me - physically or Spiritually - in our Communion time tomorrow morning - and every morning!

Shalom in Yahshua

Frank

]]> Comment on Wine or Grape Juice ? by Douglas http://indychurch.org/blog/2003/11/wine-or-grape-juice/#comment-108 Douglas Tue, 07 Aug 2007 03:44:01 +0000 http://indychurch.org/?p=88#comment-108 I think many are trying to suggest that the symbolic nature of communion can be used to determine what elements we should use, i.e., since it is only symbolic, then it doesn’t matter what we use. Grape juice is a nineteenth century invention. We shouldn’t try to force the scriptures and history to be in harmony with our social norms on alcohol. Fruit of the vine is used to describe wine used during Passover, just asks any non Messianic Jewish rabbi. If we cannot allow the scriptures to clearly speak to us on this subject, then how can we ever get at any truth? Jesus said “DO THIS in remembrance of me.” Ask yourself what the “DO THIS” is. It is more than trying to figure out what the elements represent. Grapes are harvested in the fall. Passover is celebrated in the spring. Sanitation methods that we know of today were not available 2000 years ago. It would have been very dangerous for anyone to consume unfermented grape juice. It just didn’t happen. Wine and unleavened bread are the apostolic elements we should use for communion. I think many are trying to suggest that the symbolic nature of communion can be used to determine what elements we should use, i.e., since it is only symbolic, then it doesn’t matter what we use. Grape juice is a nineteenth century invention. We shouldn’t try to force the scriptures and history to be in harmony with our social norms on alcohol. Fruit of the vine is used to describe wine used during Passover, just asks any non Messianic Jewish rabbi. If we cannot allow the scriptures to clearly speak to us on this subject, then how can we ever get at any truth? Jesus said “DO THIS in remembrance of me.” Ask yourself what the “DO THIS” is. It is more than trying to figure out what the elements represent. Grapes are harvested in the fall. Passover is celebrated in the spring. Sanitation methods that we know of today were not available 2000 years ago. It would have been very dangerous for anyone to consume unfermented grape juice. It just didn’t happen. Wine and unleavened bread are the apostolic elements we should use for communion.

]]> Comment on Jennifer Palmer by Jennifer Palmer http://indychurch.org/blog/2003/08/jennifer-palmer/#comment-75 Jennifer Palmer Thu, 19 Jul 2007 01:48:16 +0000 http://indychurch.org/?p=70#comment-75 I also, am named Jennifer Palmer. I also decided to Google my name. I'm sorry to see such a lovely person perish. For our namesake, May she rest in peace. I also, am named Jennifer Palmer. I also decided to Google my name. I’m sorry to see such a lovely person perish. For our namesake, May she rest in peace.

]]> Comment on How can I help? by Mike http://indychurch.org/blog/2006/07/how-can-i-help/#comment-288 Mike Thu, 14 Jun 2007 02:14:43 +0000 http://indychurch.org/?p=185#comment-288 Hi there, I was googling around looking for 'seed churches' for a project some friends and I are starting: http://www.churchweblogs.com I saw your indy church weblogs page is down. Can I help you with that? ;) Let me know and I'll add your church to the project. Thanks! In Christ -Mike Hi there, I was googling around looking for ’seed churches’ for a project some friends and I are starting:

http://www.churchweblogs.com

I saw your indy church weblogs page is down. Can I help you with that? ;)
Let me know and I’ll add your church to the project. Thanks!

In Christ
-Mike

]]> Comment on Wine or Grape Juice ? by Becky http://indychurch.org/blog/2003/11/wine-or-grape-juice/#comment-107 Becky Sun, 27 May 2007 04:58:18 +0000 http://indychurch.org/?p=88#comment-107 Hey, we have cordial in plastic cups at church camp for communion. Hey, it's not traditional, but maybe if Jesus had had cordial, he would have done the same! I think the point is the symbolism - the drink is the blood of Jesus, the bread his body, and that's what we need to remember. 1 corinthians 11:26 says "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." NIV - and that is what we're doing. "Do this in rememberance of me" says Jesus... and I think that's what's important. Also, everyone's so caught up about the drink. Should we be using white or wholemeal bread? Perhaps multigrain... and should that have yeast in it or not? Raisin bread sounds nice... just a thought. Hey, we have cordial in plastic cups at church camp for communion. Hey, it’s not traditional, but maybe if Jesus had had cordial, he would have done the same! I think the point is the symbolism - the drink is the blood of Jesus, the bread his body, and that’s what we need to remember. 1 corinthians 11:26 says “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” NIV - and that is what we’re doing. “Do this in rememberance of me” says Jesus… and I think that’s what’s important. Also, everyone’s so caught up about the drink. Should we be using white or wholemeal bread? Perhaps multigrain… and should that have yeast in it or not? Raisin bread sounds nice… just a thought.

]]> Comment on Church Bulletin of the Yellow Variety by Breanna Palmer http://indychurch.org/blog/2003/08/church-bulletin-of-the-yellow-variety/#comment-72 Breanna Palmer Mon, 05 Mar 2007 01:00:25 +0000 http://indychurch.org/?p=69#comment-72 Hello, My name is Breanna Palmer and I live in Brantford, ONtario, Canada I am 13 years old and I was looking up information about my mothers ( Jennifer Palmer) work and her buisness and I by accidently typed her name into google and this came up. I was very curious as to if this was real or not please email me back and tall me yuor location. I will be interested about the person that has the same name as my mom.. Thank you, Breanna palmer Hello, My name is Breanna Palmer and I live in Brantford, ONtario, Canada I am 13 years old and I was looking up information about my mothers ( Jennifer Palmer) work and her buisness and I by accidently typed her name into google and this came up. I was very curious as to if this was real or not please email me back and tall me yuor location. I will be interested about the person that has the same name as my mom..

Thank you,

Breanna palmer

]]> Comment on Soujourners by Gainda Parsan http://indychurch.org/blog/2005/02/soujourners/#comment-263 Gainda Parsan Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:47:42 +0000 http://indychurch.org/?p=159#comment-263 I would like to get some more information on Chris Eerdman and his publications I would like to get some more information on Chris Eerdman and his publications

]]> Comment on How can I help? by Rob http://indychurch.org/blog/2006/07/how-can-i-help/#comment-287 Rob Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:36:36 +0000 http://indychurch.org/?p=185#comment-287 Where can I learn more who you are and about your church? Perhaps a couple of postings will do it for me, but there are a lot out there. Where can I learn more who you are and about your church? Perhaps a couple of postings will do it for me, but there are a lot out there.

]]> Comment on The Resurrection and the Postmodern Dilemma by Rob http://indychurch.org/blog/2006/03/the-resurrection-and-the-postmodern-dilemma/#comment-280 Rob Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:33:39 +0000 http://indychurch.org/?p=184#comment-280 Moderator: If possible, can you edit my posting, replacing the second paragraph with this modified version? "There is no objective truth: This is true - for man. I think the better phrase he uses is “neutral knowledge.” God’s bias is the only one the counts, though. Man always has a bias and limited knowledge/truth. Modernism believes that man, by the use of his rational abilities, can apprehend truth. He cannot. Lk 24:45 says “Then opened [Jesus] their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures…” Without this, they could not have understood truth. There is truth, but it is only God’s truth from God’s perspective, and we can only apprehend it by His Spirit. The modern church has failed in this and postmodernism is rightly challenging this." Thanks, Rob Moderator: If possible, can you edit my posting, replacing the second paragraph with this modified version?

“There is no objective truth: This is true - for man. I think the better phrase he uses is “neutral knowledge.” God’s bias is the only one the counts, though. Man always has a bias and limited knowledge/truth. Modernism believes that man, by the use of his rational abilities, can apprehend truth. He cannot. Lk 24:45 says “Then opened [Jesus] their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures…” Without this, they could not have understood truth. There is truth, but it is only God’s truth from God’s perspective, and we can only apprehend it by His Spirit. The modern church has failed in this and postmodernism is rightly challenging this.”

Thanks,
Rob

]]> Comment on The Resurrection and the Postmodern Dilemma by Rob http://indychurch.org/blog/2006/03/the-resurrection-and-the-postmodern-dilemma/#comment-279 Rob Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:04:41 +0000 http://indychurch.org/?p=184#comment-279 I haven't finished the article, but I want to address the 3 points of postmodernism briefly, in particular in response to Hap above. There is no objective truth: This is true - for man. I think the better phrase he uses is "neutral truth." God's bias is the only one the counts, though. Man always has a bias and limited truth. Modernism believes that man, by the use of his rational abilities, can apprehend truth. He cannot. Lk 24:45 says "Then opened [Jesus] their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures..." Without this, they could not have understood truth. There is truth, but it is only God's truth from God's perspective, and we can only apprehend it by His Spirit. The modern church has failed in this and postmodernism is rightly challenging this. The Self: The modern church is very individualistic, and the Church is not supposed to be. It is to be a community. Postmodernism is again rightly challenging this wrong attitude of the modern church. The Story: The modern church has bought into the positivist belief that knowledge has gone from woeful ignorance to enlightenment through rationality (Greek- and pagan-based, now science). What has this done to us and our faith? We even go so far in our thinking, subtly, as to accept a certain attitude that even the writers of the OT and NT were part of this ignorance. Postmodernism has real problems and Satan is using it, but the modern church has helped and is helping him. Postmodernism presents a slap in the face of the modern church to wake it up from some of the modernist lies even Evangelicalism has bought into. Will we wake up? I haven’t finished the article, but I want to address the 3 points of postmodernism briefly, in particular in response to Hap above.

There is no objective truth: This is true - for man. I think the better phrase he uses is “neutral truth.” God’s bias is the only one the counts, though. Man always has a bias and limited truth. Modernism believes that man, by the use of his rational abilities, can apprehend truth. He cannot. Lk 24:45 says “Then opened [Jesus] their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures…” Without this, they could not have understood truth. There is truth, but it is only God’s truth from God’s perspective, and we can only apprehend it by His Spirit. The modern church has failed in this and postmodernism is rightly challenging this.

The Self: The modern church is very individualistic, and the Church is not supposed to be. It is to be a community. Postmodernism is again rightly challenging this wrong attitude of the modern church.

The Story: The modern church has bought into the positivist belief that knowledge has gone from woeful ignorance to enlightenment through rationality (Greek- and pagan-based, now science). What has this done to us and our faith? We even go so far in our thinking, subtly, as to accept a certain attitude that even the writers of the OT and NT were part of this ignorance.

Postmodernism has real problems and Satan is using it, but the modern church has helped and is helping him. Postmodernism presents a slap in the face of the modern church to wake it up from some of the modernist lies even Evangelicalism has bought into. Will we wake up?

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