Wine or Grape Juice ?
This question came up on Sunday: Would it be any better to use actual wine instead of grape juice? I realize this has the potential to bog down in mere arguing but, nonetheless, it seems worth discussing.
The tradition of my childhood had a strict stance on alcohol so because of that this question was dismissed out of hand. I don’t think the Scriptures command us to use wine. Jesus made use of those things that were already present at the table. They were perfect symbols for what he communicated.
What is the purpose of a symbol? What did the wine and bread symbolize? Is the symbolism affected by what is used? Welchs vs. Charles Shaw ? Pita bread vs. matzah ? Iced tea? Cookies?
What if someone is a recovering alcoholic? What if someone is allergic to the dyes used grape juice? What if someone is on a low-carb diet? What if bread and wine aren’t available?
What do you think? What’s been your experience?
November 19th, 2003 at 8:49 am
INTERESTING TOPIC! I grew up grape juice myself as a Southern Baptist and now my nondenominational church uses grape juice as well. Wine and bread would be more “authentic” in a way since those were the contents of the original supper. But I tend to think that it is the motivation behind the action that makes a meal a “Lord’s Supper” or not. I think a lot of people go through the motions of communion on Sundays and are really not “taking communion” at all if their hearts and spirits are not involved. On the other hand, if I were stranded on an island, I’d be taking communion with papayas and coconut juice.
Here’s another topic for pondering, I am not a believer of transubstantiation in the Catholic sense. I believe the communion act is a symbol, albeit a most important and commanded one. But Hebrews makes it pretty clear that Jesus died ONCE and once only. The theory behind transubstantiation seems contradictory. I might be opening a worm can here but I would be interested in everyone’s thoughts on that one.
November 19th, 2003 at 9:04 am
I would definitely agree that transsubstantiation is invalid. Many have made this case. Just finished a little book by NT Wright on the subject.
I would agree that the communion/the Eucharist/Lord’s Supper/whatever you want to call it could be celebrated without actual wine or bread. Again, Scripture doesn’t seem to prescribe the specific elements and there’s no magical formula to be adhered to that requires authentic Middle Eastern ingredients from that period.
At the same time we could be missing the boat on something available to us. I think God has given us the very concept of symbols to help us, even at the risk that we would get confused and worship symbols. Seems we’re prone to screw-up everything given the chance. Which has richer symbolic effect, wine or Welch’s? Bread or wafers?
November 20th, 2003 at 8:34 pm
i was a part of a small group once where we used vanilla coke and stale bread.
i’m not kidding. it really happened. of course, it was when i was on staff with campus ministry.
so there you have it.
obviously, since i have taken communion using a caffeinated beverage from coca-cola, i do not hold strong convictions about what the elements should be.
i do however feel guilty about the vanilla coke incident and prefer real wine in communion.
knauer and i had a talk about it once. she had read me a great quote about wine being way more risky and mysterious than grape juice. i kind of liked that idea.
November 22nd, 2003 at 8:58 pm
I grew up in a church that did the wine thing, but moved over to a grape juice church.
In our church we use grape juice, because it is not a point of contention for people. We have a mix of people with varied backgrounds and positions and I have found that the best way to keep the focus on what communion is about - is to remove the possible stuggle for people.
I personally don’t care, but I know some who would want this to be the time to teach that alcohol is okay… Sure, I can roll with that, but the timing stinks. So - I guess what I’m saying is - whatever helps people focus on God and what happened. That is my thought at the moment.
(in me however lies the guy who got free from the legalism and wants to have us empty the wineskins! but it isn’t my personal battle - it is the Lord’s Supper.)
November 29th, 2003 at 9:47 am
Here’s the quote I tried to that Sunday and that Patty referenced. I don’t remember where I found it, but I cut it out and it’s on my fridge. It’s a Linford Detwiler (OTR)quote from “Northern Spy Number One, Crawl Under Smoke” refering to something Fredrick Buechner said in Wishful Thinking: A Theological ABC.
“Whoever substituted grape juice for wine in small Protestant churches wasn’t too with it. Grape Juice is such a lousy symbol for the blood for Christ… There’s nothing dangerous or intoxicating or complex about grape juice.”
January 5th, 2004 at 10:28 am
i’m not a member of your community, so i apologize if posting here is bad etiquette. i think this conversation is wonderful, and a great point was made by steve. the LORD’s supper is about the relationship between people, the unity found in the death of CHRIST. HIS body and blood “glue” us together with one another, not because of the symbols but because of the substance that they point to. when the church spends all of its time arguing over symbols, they forgot about the substance - JESUS. wine is a wondeful symbol of the blood of CHRIST, maybe even the best one. but if the use of wine during communion divides people, then we’ve missed the point of the celebration.
the “unity” of the supper needs to take precedence over the symbolic elements themselves.
January 15th, 2004 at 12:55 am
Greetings!
Having just preached on the Lord’s Supper 3 days ago, this thread piqued my interest. Very briefly, riley (and others), allow me to say two things. First, it is not your Supper; you did not die in order to serve this Supper, Jesus Christ did. You (and I and everyone else) do not have the right to set the Table, and He sets the Table with Bread and Wine. For 1800 years, nobody ever questioned whether or not wine should be served. Only when the Temperance Movement began to wag the Church in America in the mid-1800s, did grape juice creep in, and it did so without any doctrinal basis. In 1874, the Woman’s Christian Temperance Union took hold of the Church, when the men of the Church abdicated their position. Never was there any Biblical reason given, or needed. The social gospel, the watered down gospel, and grape juice (watered down wine)all sprang from that same generation. Think about it.
Secondly, it is not wine that divides a congregation. In a Biblical church, a few people might want grape juice, and that would divide the church. Better to do what the Bible commands, and face the music with God’s blessings, than to offer strange fire, and face the wrath of God (Leviticus 10:1-2 1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.)
I’ll stop now, but am happy to post more on the covenantal basis for the Lord’s Supper, if anyone is interested.
Blessings in Christ.
February 12th, 2004 at 9:27 pm
I have been studying this wine vs grape juice thing recently. I’ve always thought wine to be “wine” not grape juice in the Lord’s supper. However, in the OT ‘wine’ is referenced to grapes in the cluster and ‘presses burst with new wine’. Prov 31 suggest that Kings do not drink wine and goes on to say why. Jesus is KING OF KINGS (Revelation), and Jesus said in the gospels ‘I come to fulfill the law; not to destroy it’. Also, I am researching wine of Biblical times, but today’s wine is made by MAN mixing in several different additives and closely controlling temperature, acid levels, and sterlization processes.
February 21st, 2004 at 11:31 pm
Briefly. The O.T.and N.T. alike state on a number of occasions that the body of the Jesus, the Messiah, would not see corruption. In the sacrament of communion the bread, which represents the body of Jesus, the perfect sacrificed lamb, is not corrupted by leaven. Leaven, in scripture, represents sin. Grapes must corrupt, they must spoil, to become wine. To accomplish this, leaven must be present for this to occur. So, in this transformation process leaven(which generates the corruption process), the symbol of sin, must become a vital part in this equation which transforms a pure agent into an agent which, if over indulged, causes irrational, ignorant, uncontrolled, stupid,degrading,perverse, (the list could go on and on) behavior. Wine is adultered grapejuice. Just as unleavened bread is the proper representation of the uncorrupted, pure body of Jesus, so likewise is the unleavened, and, therefore, uncorrupted grapejuice the proper representation of the uncorrupted, pure blood of Jesus. Scripture states that “wine is a mocker.” How can something with this connotation be a proper and untainted representation of the pure and untainted blood of Christ, the perfect Lamb of God.
March 22nd, 2004 at 12:20 am
This is David again, from 3 notes ago. Just a few short comments on the last 2 posts.
In the Scriptures, the Greek word for wine means the fermented drink made from grapes. If Christ had wanted to indicate Welch’s, He could have done so, but He did not. No matter how you slice it, the drink Jesus drank with the Last Supper and that which He chose to represent His Blood in the Lord’s Supper was wine, as we know it, the fermented fruit of the vine.
Secondly, Harold, your statement that “Leaven, in scripture, represents sin.” is only partly true.
The term ‘leaven’, as used in Scripture, simply means that which will grow and have an impact on its surroundings. There are Scriptural passages which view leaven as negative, such as Matthew 16:6 “Then Jesus said to them, ‘Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.’” So, leaven is something to be avoided, right? Yes, and no. Matthew 13:33 teaches us quite another understanding of leaven: “Another parable He spoke to them: ‘The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.’ And, in Leviticus 7:11-13, we read about this positive aspect of leaven, in the form of a commandment to use leavened bread in all Peace Offerings: “This is the law of the sacrifice of peace offerings which he shall offer to the Lord: If he offers it for a thanksgiving, then he shall offer, with the sacrifice of thanksgiving, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, unleavened wafers anointed with oil, or cakes of blended flour mixed with oil. Besides the cakes, as his offering he shall offer leavened bread with the sacrifice of thanksgiving of his peace offering.” Now, it is critical to recall that the Lord
May 26th, 2007 at 11:58 pm
Hey, we have cordial in plastic cups at church camp for communion. Hey, it’s not traditional, but maybe if Jesus had had cordial, he would have done the same! I think the point is the symbolism - the drink is the blood of Jesus, the bread his body, and that’s what we need to remember. 1 corinthians 11:26 says “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” NIV - and that is what we’re doing. “Do this in rememberance of me” says Jesus… and I think that’s what’s important. Also, everyone’s so caught up about the drink. Should we be using white or wholemeal bread? Perhaps multigrain… and should that have yeast in it or not? Raisin bread sounds nice… just a thought.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
I think many are trying to suggest that the symbolic nature of communion can be used to determine what elements we should use, i.e., since it is only symbolic, then it doesn’t matter what we use. Grape juice is a nineteenth century invention. We shouldn’t try to force the scriptures and history to be in harmony with our social norms on alcohol. Fruit of the vine is used to describe wine used during Passover, just asks any non Messianic Jewish rabbi. If we cannot allow the scriptures to clearly speak to us on this subject, then how can we ever get at any truth? Jesus said “DO THIS in remembrance of me.” Ask yourself what the “DO THIS” is. It is more than trying to figure out what the elements represent. Grapes are harvested in the fall. Passover is celebrated in the spring. Sanitation methods that we know of today were not available 2000 years ago. It would have been very dangerous for anyone to consume unfermented grape juice. It just didn’t happen. Wine and unleavened bread are the apostolic elements we should use for communion.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Very interesting Posts and great Posits. Perhaps our understanding of the original Hebrew context of “Communion” will help - time permitting.
There is little evidence that the 2nd Testament was written in Greek (a language of Form - takes what is beautiful and makes it Holy). Papias and Esubius both early Church Fathers refer to the 2nd Testament Hebrew Scriptures (Hebrew being a language of Function - takes what is Holy and makes it beautiful).
The point here is that the Greek transliteration from the Hebrew leaves out many needed Hebraisms and idioms necessary for a full understanding of the text.
The Pasach meal has always enjoyed wine bcause wine in Judaic ceremony represents an “acceptance” to a Covenant or business transaction. It is specifically used for weddings when two people are betrothed to signify their mutual acceptance of the Covenant terms and conditions, and the Bride Price.
G-d bringing Israel out of Egypt ‘unto himself’ is likened to the Messiah bringing us out of sin ‘unto Himself’ - His bride. A Covenant has been made between Bride and Groom and when this is agreed upon, a toast or ‘cup of acceptance’ is drunk commemorating the transaction.
The Hebrew Bride Price was the Blood of a Lamb to ‘cover’ their sins.
In the case of Christ and the Messianic Believers, the Bride Price would be His Blood poured out for the remission of sin.
The ‘cup’ of wine is then drunk together to ’seal’ the covenant agreement.
The original Pasach in Egypt was done with ordinary bread (there was no leavening apart from time), so the behest to complete the meal before midnight when the Angel of Death would Pass-Over.
The ‘Lord’s Supper’ as it is referred to in the NIV was not the Pesach celebration but was the ‘Last Supper’ of a period of ceremonial suppers with Leavened bread that took place just before the Pass-over supper or Seder which was without leavening.
Christ’s (I prefer ‘Yahshua’) breaking of bread (leavened) was symbolic of His body broken for our healing, His body leavened with our sin for our cleansing, and by His blood poured out for our iniquities. Then He picks up the cup at the end of the meal and declares “This is the cup of the renewed Covenant that I make with you (in my Blood), do this as often as you come together in remembrance of my death until I return”.
The Jews celebrate their weddings with a ‘Hoopa’ which is a lifting up of the Bride jsut before the wedding meal - s picture of the ‘Rapture’ before the wedding supper. The whole of the 1st and 2nd Testaments together are a Jewish Wedding Handbook. At the Wedding Feast of Cana Yahshua is saying “the wedding is on - prepare for the Hoopa”. He has saved the best wine until last - the wine of the Holy Spirit.
The Song of Solomon is a compendium in one writ of YAHWEH’s wedding plans - the redemption of mankind.
Concerning the ‘unworthy manner’ found in 1 co 11:27, please note that ‘unworthy’ modifies ‘manner’ (diagram it) not the spiritual condition necessarily of the participant. A technical but very important part of the Communion process. Paul is castigating the ‘way’ some approach the table - not their relationship with the L-rd. He is our ‘Worthiness’. If I come to a meal less than totally healed or completely sinless I come unworthily.
And I come for healing and restoration, because that is how He left me when we first met.
Paul’s main concern was their lack of understanding of what happened at the Tree (Cross):
1CO 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the ‘body’ of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. (NIV)
The word Body here is ’soma’ in the Greek which means ‘wholeness - not lacking’. He was broken completely for all our iniquities and infirmities, that we would be made whole, complete, not lacking anything. We should be totally healed. Note also that ’soma’ is rooted in ’sozo’ or salvation. Or, turning it around: the fruit of ’sozo’ our salvation is ’soma’ our wholeness.
When I am Saved, I am also Healed - they should go together.
1CO 11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. (we shouldn’t be)
We are a new creation, we are supposed to be completely healed; we are not ‘going home early’ because if we are obedient to the commandments we can expect to live a long and healthy life. You don’t put new wine into old wineskins; He is coming for a ‘body of believers’ without spot or wrinkle!
YAHSHUA bought and paid for our healing with His life and a lot of pain and suffering - that we wouldn’t have to.
Psa 105:37 says of Israel coming out of Egypt - “They were laden with Silver and Gold (for the building up of the Tabernacle), and there was not a feeble man among them. (They were totally healed)
He has redeemed us in exactly the same manner:
When He brought us out of sin, we were laden with Gifts of the Spirit (for the building up of the Church), and there ’should’ not be any feeble among us. (Eph 4:8-12)
Too much for too little space. Sufficient to say, the ‘cup’ of wine does not represent His Blood. Eating flesh and drinking blood were anathema to the TORAH. YAHSHUA was a Pharisee - an ardent keeper of the Law. He never broke the Law. He did restore a lot of lost Righteousness in the keeping of the law.
Jews never ask G-d to bless what He has already Blessed. They give thanks for His Provision:
Baruch Atta Adonai Elohenu Melek HaOlam
Hamotze lechem meen haaretz = Blessed are You O YAHWEH our YAH, King of the Universe, Who brings forth the bread from the earth!
Bread does not come from the earth - the resurrected YAHSHUA does; as it says: “No man comes to the Father except through the Son; No man comes to the Son except the Father Draw Him (from the earth)!
It’s the Resurrected life in us that YAHWEH uses to ‘draw’ men to Himself!
In the same way, the Jews give thanks to the Creator of the… well, listen:
Baruch atta Adonai Elohenu Melek HaOlam
Bore Pri Hagafen = Blessed are You O YAHWEH our YAH
Creator of the fruit of the vine!
The Body and the Blood are included in the Breaking of the bread.
The Cup of Wine is the signatory of His Creation/Finished Works/Completed Covenant.
Please note the Jews do this every meal as did the Messianic Believers of YAHSHUA’s time, right up through the 3rd century - every meal was a Communion Meal. (Luk 24:30).
Jewish Sages (Talmud) said that they will not recognize Messiach ben Joseph - the first of two Messiahs (and they didn’t).
They are now looking forward to Messiach ben David - Deliverer
Our Messiach ben Joseph - Redeemer has already been - and will come again as Messiach ben David - Deliverer.
As it is stated: The first born (the Jew) will be last (in His Kingdom), and the last (the Jew) will still be the first born of YAHWEH.
To the Jew first!
PRO 27:18 He who tends a fig tree will eat its fruit, and he who looks after his master will be honored. (NIV)
This is our present mission from YAHWEH - to facilitate the restoration of the Jew - not to save him. G-d will save him. Our restoration witness starts with our personal wellness, family wholeness, and productive labor.
Communion is in and of itself a “Healing Meal”! I come to Communion either to celebrate His wholeness (soma) or to receive ‘wholeness’.
EXO 20:7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. (NKJV)
‘Taking His Name’ is a Jewish wedding expression. When a bride takes the name of her husband, she takes everything he is and has - health, wealth, social values and societal position. She is no longer her own - she has been bought with a price. We are bought with a price, and we are His and His Bride Price (His Blood) bought us a soul without ‘SPOT’ and a body without ‘WRINKLE’.
When I walk unhealed or with sin in my life (the two go together frequently but not always), I am taking the LORD’s name in vain - for it was His Name that saved me and healed me at the beginning.
Remember, Hebrew is a language of ‘function’. the word ‘name’ in Hebrew means ‘appelation’ - the character of - the function of. This Commandment is not a ‘vocabulary’ command, it is a ‘function’ command - how I walk or talk, or work, or play - everything I do speaks of the one I represent - YAHWEH Who heals and delivers, or Satan who seeks to steal, kill, and destroy. I am first a Witness of the Spirit in me (Rom 12:1) “Everything I do with my physical body is my spiritual service of warship”.
My witness to anybody - Jew or Greek - starts with their perception of my physical being. Peter said to the man at the Gate Beautiful - ‘Look at me, Silver and Gold have I not but what I have give I to thee’ and the crippled man looked at him expecting to receive something (If Peter had been crippled, the crippled man certainly wouldn’t have been looking for a healing), and Peter took him by the hand and pulled him to his feet’.
Saint Francis of Assisi, when asked by a disciple on a trip when would he start witnessing, was answered “Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel, and if absolutely necessary, open your mouth”
Communion should be my daily contact point with my LORD and SAVIOR like renewing a wedding vow, we are renewing our Covenant relationship with Him. It’s a time of healing and restoration - so that His Name in me will not be in vain. The elements are not nearly as important as the clear understanding of what He did for me on that Tree. His Body became leavened with my infirmities; His Blood became leavened with my iniquities. Yes, whole bread and real wine are what the L-rd used because they very graphically represent what He did for us in making and sealing His Covenant of Love.
I hope you will join Nancy and me - physically or Spiritually - in our Communion time tomorrow morning - and every morning!
Shalom in Yahshua
Frank